you mean like S.Arabia bombed the hell out Yemen and isis destroyed Syria and Iraq hmm like saddam gassed s whole village of Kurds, not forgetting abt boko haramm al nusra al qaida al shabaab al shariah taliban

yeah right like this
John 12
44 Jesus cried out and said, “He that believeth in Me, believeth not in Me, but in Him that sent Me.

45 And he that seeth Me, seeth Him that sent Me.

46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth in Me should not abide in darkness.

47 And if any man hear My words and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My words, hath One that judgeth him; the Word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the Last Day.

49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father who sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak.

50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting. Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.”

John 3
16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He that believeth in Him is not condemned; but He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation: that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He tarried with them, and baptized.

23 And John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized,

so did you interpret the Bible or did you aks some one to help you to interpret the Bible for you and with you? So now let me ask you this how will you interpret this?
John 3.16
16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He that believeth in Him is not condemned; but He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation: that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”

22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He tarried with them, and baptized.

or this one

John 12

44 Jesus cried out and said, “He that believeth in Me, believeth not in Me, but in Him that sent Me.

45 And he that seeth Me, seeth Him that sent Me.

46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth in Me should not abide in darkness.

47 And if any man hear My words and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My words, hath One that judgeth him; the Word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the Last Day.

49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father who sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak.

50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting. Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.”
GBY

Jews outperform Muslims in science

Nobel Prizes to Jews

Jews: 129 (one hundred twenty nine)
14,000,000
(14 Million)
.02% of population

Nobel Prizes Muslims

Muslims: only 4 (FOUR)
1,200,000,000
(1 billion)
20%

JEWS are better than MUSLIMS in…
1.The Jews are NOT promoting brain washing children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims!
2.The Jews don’t hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics, or blow themselves up in German restaurants.
3.There is NOT one single Jew that has destroyed a church.
4.There is NOT a single Jew that protests by killing people.
5.The Jews don’t traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels.
6.Perhaps the world’s Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews for all their problems.
7.Muslims must ask ‘what can they do for humankind’ before they demand that humankind respects them!!
8.Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel ‘s part, the following two sentences really say it all:
9.’If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel’. (Benjamin Netanyahu)

Conclusion:
1.Jews win the contributions to science prize. Muslims fail miserably. Even today, most Muslims can’t even read Arabic!
2.The myth of embryology in the Koran is another lie of Islam.

REally? Then what punishment god given to Prophet Abraham (PBUH) for having two wives? So, jesus (pbuh) never followed abraham? what about this bibilical statement “Jesus (pbuh) followed the law and believed in all the prophets, (see Matthew 5:17)”. ??

I linked the wiki page on her. that held this up in moderation:

over there? aren’t you in Nigeria?

a woman in the sudan was married to a Christian, had one or two kids with him and was pregnant again. her brother turned her in to the government on the charge of apostasy. her father was a muslim and they said she was therefore a muslim. so they charged her and sentenced her to death by hanging. international pressure was brought to bare and they let her go.

no link this time, just google, ‘Sudanese woman sentenced to death for being Christian’.

im a little low on international scene coz of work, coz u run me thru what happened over there

The government

who wanted to hang

the woman who they wanted to hang for being an apostate.

what about the women in Sudan

dude, you should run for president. you remind me of Clinton saying that: ‘it depends on what your definition of is is’.
so what did you think of the case of the woman in the sudan?

Yup i think i confused u, the idea of apostate being killed is not from Quran but from hadiths, but like i told u earlier, it’s an almost impossible rule to implement coz of much technicalities, its a deterrent at best and an efficient rule for stopping ppl to publicly call others to apostatizing, what they do in their private life is protected and espionage is forbidden in islam, but if they call others to leave islam or publicly declare themselves to have left islam, that could be unacceptable based on what the scholars decide on that matter.Do I support islamic law, definitely … Do i think ppl who calls others to apostasy and then persists in their disbelief should be killed in a caliphate, if the scholars agree on it, then i won’t oppose it, and if they disagree on it, i won’t oppose either. Can this ruling change, there can be some room but we don’t have the context to test the waters, if it ever comes to that, i’ll let u know.

ok. now I’m confused. so do you think you should kill an apostate?

That verse is not for apostatizing, its for muslims in general to follow the Quran/sunnah and whoever goes against it strays into the wrong path, not kill apostates as u thought.

oh, it is the battle of trench. my Arabic is much, much worse than my English. and my English ain’t no good.

I’ve been told by muslims that my heart is diseased.

the battle of ahzab? i’ll have to google that one, I’ve only studied the battles of badr, uhud and trench so far.

“i don’t understand where do u find verses of punishment of apostasy in it” didn’t you quote 36 in your comment about death to apostates?

kled23 2 days ago

There is no compulsion of religion, no non muslim can be compelled to accept islam, they have their own freewill and can practice their religion without any hindrance or compulsion, the verse deals with non muslim,

even te other verse u were referring to, surah al kafiroon or chapter 109, it speaks about disbelievers, its not a discussion among muslims, once a person becomes muslim, this is the verse that applies

It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His
Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any
choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger
has certainly strayed into clear error. Quran 33:36..

But like i said earlier, u don’t have secret service or NSA to see who is apostatizing, espionage is forbidden in islam among muslims, so muslims can believe whatever they want in their private and personal life, practice islam or not etc, its totally upto them, but just don’t promote apostasy to misguide others. Muslims are free to choose to do what tey want.

Interesting surah indeed, For the hypocrites and whose heart is disease like that of adultery if they don’t stop spreading false rumors in the city of Medina, then Allah will make the Muslims overpower them and if they don’t desist , cause them to be killed at the hands of muslim, verse 60-61, and this is a warning, and the context is battle of ahzab, i don’t understand where do u find verses of punishment of apostasy in it, the rulings regarding apostasy are almost entirely taken from hadiths.

isn’t that obvious? that you use it to justify killing apostates. and this verse that calls for killing.

almost all of it. the slamming the door shut in 36.

The Koran

The Clans

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[33.1] O Prophet! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and do not comply with (the wishes of) the unbelievers and the hypocrites; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise;
[33.2] And follow what is revealed to you from your Lord; surely Allah is Aware of what you do;
[33.3] And rely on Allah; and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
[33.4] Allah has not made for any man two hearts within him; nor has He made your wives whose backs you liken to the backs of your mothers as your mothers, nor has He made those whom you assert to be your sons your real sons; these are the words of your mouths; and Allah speaks the truth and He guides to the way.
[33.5] Assert their relationship to their fathers; this is more equitable with Allah; but if you do not know their fathers, then they are your brethren in faith and your friends; and there is no blame on you concerning that in which you made a mistake, but (concerning) that which your hearts do purposely (blame may rest on you), and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[33.6] The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves, and his wives are (as) their mothers; and the possessors of relationship have the better claim in the ordinance of Allah to inheritance, one with respect to another, than (other) believers, and (than) those who have fled (their homes), except that you do some good to your friends; this is written in the Book.
[33.7] And when We made a covenant with the prophets and with you, and with Nuh and Ibrahim and Musa and Isa, son of Marium, and We made with them a strong covenant
[33.8] That He may question the truthful of their truth, and He has prepared for the unbelievers a painful punishment.
[33.9] O you who believe! call to mind the favor of Allah to you when there came down upon you hosts, so We sent against them a strong wind and hosts, that you saw not, and Allah is Seeing what you do.
[33.10] When they came upon you from above you and from below you, and when the eyes turned dull, and the hearts rose up to the throats, and you began to think diverse thoughts of Allah.
[33.11] There the believers were tried and they were shaken with severe shaking.
[33.12] And when the hypocrites and those in whose hearts was a disease began to say: Allah and His Apostle did not promise us (victory) but only to deceive.
[33.13] And when a party of them said: O people of Yasrib! there IS no place to stand for you (here), therefore go back; and a party of them asked permission of the prophet, saying. Surely our houses are exposed; and they were not exposed; they only desired to fly away.
[33.14] And if an entry were made upon them from the outlying parts of it, then they were asked to wage war, they would certainly have done it, and they would not have stayed in it but a little while.
[33.15] And certainly they had made a covenant with Allah before, that) they would not turn (their) backs; and Allah’s covenant shall be inquired of.
[33.16] Say: Flight shall not do you any good if you fly from death or slaughter, and in that case you will not be allowed to enjoy yourselves but a little.
[33.17] Say: Who is it that can withhold you from Allah if He intends to do you evil, rather He intends to show you mercy? And they will not find for themselves besides Allah any guardian or a helper.
[33.18] Allah knows indeed those among you who hinder others and those who say to their brethren: Come to us; and they come not to the fight but a little,
[33.19] Being niggardly with respect to you; but when fear comes, you will see them looking to you, their eyes rolling like one swooning because of death; but when the fear is gone they smite you with sharp tongues, being niggardly of the good things. These have not believed, therefore Allah has made.their doing naught; and this is easy to Allah.
[33.20] They think the allies are not gone, and if the allies should come (again) they would fain be in the deserts with the desert Arabs asking for news about you, and if they were among you they would not fight save a little.
[33.21] Certainly you have in the Apostle of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.
[33.22] And when the believers saw the allies, they said: This is what Allah and His Apostle promised us, and Allah and His Apostle spoke the truth; and it only increased them in faith and submission.
[33.23] Of the believers are men who are true to the covenant which they made with Allah: so of them is he who accomplished his vow, and of them is he who yet waits, and they have not changed in the least
[33.24] That Allah may reward the truthful for their truth, and punish the hypocrites if He please or turn to them (mercifully); surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[33.25] And Allah turned back the unbelievers in their rage; they did not obtain any advantage, and Allah sufficed the believers in fighting; and Allah is Strong, Mighty.
[33.26] And He drove down those of the followers of the Book who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive another part.
[33.27] And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things.
[33.28] O Prophet! say to your wives: If you desire this world’s life and its adornment, then come, I will give you a provision and allow you to depart a goodly departing
[33.29] And if you desire Allah and His Apostle and the latter abode, then surely Allah has prepared for the doers of good among you a mighty reward.
[33.30] O wives of the prophet! whoever of you commits an open indecency, the punishment shall be increased to her doubly; and this IS easy to Allah.
[33.31] And whoever of you is obedient to Allah and His Apostle and does good, We will give to her her reward doubly, and We have prepared for her an honorable sustenance.
[33.32] O wives of the Prophet! you are not like any other of the women; If you will be on your guard, then be not soft in (your) speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease yearn; and speak a good word.
[33.33] And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Apostle. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.
[33.34] And keep to mind what is recited in your houses of the communications of Allah and the wisdom; surely Allah is Knower of subtleties, Aware.
[33.35] Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember– Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.
[33.36] And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Apostle have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle, he surely strays off a manifest straying.
[33.37] And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah’s command shall be performed.
[33.38] There is no harm in the Prophet doing that which Allah has ordained for him; such has been the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and the command of Allah is a decree that is made absolute:
[33.39] Those who deliver the messages of Allah and fear Him, and do not fear any one but Allah; and Allah is sufficient to take account.
[33.40] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.
[33.41] O you who believe! remember Allah, remembering frequently,
[33.42] And glorify Him morning and evening.
[33.43] He it is Who sends His blessings on you, and (so do) His angels, that He may bring you forth out of utter darkness into the light; and He is Merciful to the believers.
[33.44] Their salutation on the day that they meet Him shall be, Peace, and He has prepared for them an honourable reward.
[33.45] O Prophet! surely We have sent you as a witness, and as a bearer of good news and as a warner,
[33.46] And as one inviting to Allah by His permission, and as a light-giving torch.
[33.47] And give to the believers the good news that they shall have a great grace from Allah.
[33.48] And be not compliant to the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and leave unregarded their annoying talk, and rely on Allah; and Allah is sufficient as a Protector.
[33.49] O you who believe! when you marry the believing women, then divorce them before you touch them, you have in their case no term which you should reckon; so make some provision for them and send them forth a goodly sending forth.
[33.50] O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her– specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[33.51] You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased, all of them with what you give them, and Allah knows what is in your hearts; and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.
[33.52] It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be pleasing to you, except what your right hand possesses and Allah is Watchful over all things.
[33.53] O you who believe! do not enter the houses of the Prophet unless permission is given to you for a meal, not waiting for its cooking being finished– but when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken the food, then disperse– not seeking to listen to talk; surely this gives the Prophet trouble, but he forbears from you, and Allah does not forbear from the truth And when you ask of them any goods, ask of them from behind a curtain; this is purer for your hearts and (for) their hearts; and it does not behove you that you should give trouble to the Apostle of Allah, nor that you should marry his wives after him ever; surely this is grievous in the sight of Allah.
[33.54] If you do a thing openly or do it in secret, then surely Allah is Cognizant of all things.
[33.55] There is no blame on them in respect of their fathers, nor their brothers, nor their brothers’ sons, nor their sisters’ sons nor their own women, nor of what their right hands possess; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is a witness of all things.
[33.56] Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe! call for (Divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming) salutation.
[33.57] Surely (as for) those who speak evil things of Allah and His Apostle, Allah has cursed them in this world and the here after, and He has prepared for them a chastisement bringing disgrace.
[33.58] And those who speak evil things of the believing men and the believing women without their having earned (it), they are guilty indeed of a false accusation and a manifest sin.
[33.59] O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[33.60] If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist, We shall most certainly set you over them, then they shall not be your neighbors in it but for a little while;
[33.61] Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering.
[33.62] (Such has been) the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and you shall not find any change in the course of Allah.
[33.63] Men ask you about the hour; say: The knowledge of it is only with Allah, and what will make you comprehend that the : hour may be nigh.
[33.64] Surely Allah has cursed the unbelievers and has prepared for them a burning fire,
[33.65] To abide therein for a long time; they shall not find a protector or a helper.
[33.66] On the day when their faces shall be turned back into the fire, they shall say: O would that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Apostle!
[33.67] And they shall say: O our Lord! surely we obeyed our leaders and our great men, so they led us astray from the path;
[33.68] O our Lord! give them a double punishment and curse them with a great curse.
[33.69] O you who believe! be not like those who spoke evil things of Musa, but Allah cleared him of what they said, and he was worthy of regard with Allah.
[33.70] O you who believe! be careful of(your duty to) Allah and speak the right word,
[33.71] He will put your deeds into a right state for you, and forgive you your faults; and whoever obeys Allah and His Apostle, he indeed achieves a mighty success.
[33.72] Surely We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to be unfaithful to it and feared from it, and man has turned unfaithful to it; surely he is unjust, ignorant;
[33.73] So Allah will chastise the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the polytheistic men and the polytheistic women, and Allah will turn (mercifully) to the believing women, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

What troubles u about them.

interesting sura, ‘the clans’

[33.60] If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist, We shall most certainly set you over them, then they shall not be your neighbors in it but for a little while;
[33.61] Cursed: wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering.

if by fb you mean facebook, I’m not on facebook.
if they didn’t go through I think you can see them in my disqus history.

give me ur fb id, i don’t know about moderation of this site, i have never been here before.

looks like a couple of my comments are pending. does moderation hold comments with links in them here?

yes if there is a creator, it would be my creator as well as yours, unless of course there are multiple creators. but alas there is none. but let’s say for argument’s sake there is a GOD. it makes no sense to reveal his morality in such a piecemeal fashion.

well I went to 12 years of catholic school. yes it was murder. I was wondering what slander you were talking about? and moses was a murderer too according to the old testament (numbers 31)prophets continue to disappoint. 😉

Somehow ur implying it is my God as in he created me and not u and thus it’s my God and not ur God when u keep repeating ur God to me, if God exists, he’s the creator of all humanity, and he’s the creator of morality, the sense of morality that we have now is shaped by him for us to be possible to have and feel it, as it was for those 200 years back,

if u look at animal kingdom, incest is commonplace, they have another kind of morality diff from our perception of morality, morality differs even among diff creatures, It’s foolish to question someone of morality when he created morality in the first place.

I think even though ur atheist, u have better knowledge of judeo christian ideology, u tell me if it is not murder to kill ur General to have relationship wit his wife. and how thee incident shapes out in the old testament.

nope, salafis are more or less against the 4 schools of thought and make it an open game, which is why jihadists , ISIS shoots out of salafism coz they have no basis, they can easily become misguided coz they take hadiths out of context and take apparent meanings far from the constructed meaning which is shaped by the situation and context of the time an action was done or something was said by prophet Muhammad. The Salafis though that takes its most of its queue from hanbali school are somewhat sensible.

There is no compulsion in religion is sometime referred by few muslim scholars of this time as applicable to the muslims among themselves but the idea of death for apostasy is supported by all the four schools, this verse(compulsion in religion) definitely doesn’t apply to muslims in this regard.

incidents of hajj by prophet Muhammad is witnessed by thousands of companions, all schools of thought are in unison regardng the black rock, i don’t know where u seem to get the notion that muslim doubt kissing the black rock, that is a wrong idea, and i don’t know of incident where one of caliph tried to destroy black rock, but if he contemplate it, that’s a wrong to do so and caliphs are not guided, infact throughout history there was clash between the caliphs and the religious community coz the caliphate would fail to implement islam properly, there were caliphs that were good and noble and others that were evil, corrupt and luxurious.

right, I know what bidah is. I’ve seen some muslims say that the hadith of Muhammad kissing the black rock is weak and unauthentic. didn’t one of the khalifas try to destroy the black rock 100s of yes ago?

are you saying that is the slander? or he actually did that?

do you consider yourself a salafi?

whoever says killing millions to promote democracy are wrong.
yes I understand your argument that morality changes with the times. you don’t have to keep repeating that. and yes, islam didn’t start slavery, you don’t have to deep saying that.
again the question isn’t about human morality, but the morality of your god. why wouldn’t an all-know, merciful god outlaw slavery with adam? Abraham? moses, Solomon, jesus or Muhammad?

Slavery seems bad to the blind man of this era but killing millions to promote democracy seems totally fine by many, this is the worse of generations, u just seem to think our gen is most ideal and civilized and the ones prior are misguided, if u look at the injustice, discrimination, ineligible killings, hypocrisy and blind eye to deaths to other ppl but jump in contentment when one of our own dies etc. U will easily oppose slavery but u will accept killings, oops did i say killings, collateral damage was the word used all the time, never knew collateral damage is tens or hundreds fold the real target.

Morality is a created thing just like humans, its flexible and changes with time and place, if u were born 200 years back, u would never be having this convo with me, and if i presented ur future self to ur being 200 years back, u would call ur self in the future a fool and distraught person,

slavery has not been established in islam, but forbidding pork and fornication is, We listen and we obey, the ones who were asking too many question to God were they children of Israel and they were cursed and made to wander around in lands for centuries.

There is no compulsion of religion, no non muslim can be compelled to accept islam, they have their own freewill and can practice their religion without any hindrance or compulsion, the verse deals with non muslim,

even te other verse u were referring to, surah al kafiroon or chapter 109, it speaks about disbelievers, its not a discussion among muslims, once a person becomes muslim, this is the verse that applies

It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His
Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any
choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger
has certainly strayed into clear error. Quran 33:36..

But like i said earlier, u don’t have secret service or NSA to see who is apostatizing, espionage is forbidden in islam among muslims, so muslims can believe whatever they want in their private and personal life, practice islam or not etc, its totally upto them, but just don’t promote apostasy to misguide others. Muslims are free to choose to do what tey want.

yup, he committed murder of his general to have relationship with the wife.

U seem to be confused with bida or innovation as well, bida is some practice that is considered part of religion that prophet Muhammad and his companions never did.

I thought the black rock was worshipped by the pre-Islamic pagans. you that god is not in a stone, so the black stone popped into my mind. are you sure it is not bidah to kiss the black stone? it is not in the Koran.

how is David slandered, the incident with Bathsheba?

so how does that not contradict the Koran, 2:256? or the verse, I don’t recall the number at this moment, be it goes something like this: ‘you have your religion and I will have mine’.

yes I know that in islam you take slaves as war booty.

yes I know pork is allowed if it is the only option. 5:3….But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin – then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

you continue to miss the point. you don’t need to tell me what islam is, I know. although I’ve never heard anyone say, “concensus of scholars in open matters is the ruling of God in islam”. but I will believe you and add this to the column of flaws in islam.
my point is that slavery is much worse than eating pork. that should be obvious to a blind man. why would an all-knowing god leave slavery up to people to decide while forbidding pork or even fornication.

I think ur getting badly confused, slavery has been deemed unnecessary and thus has been deemed prohibited by the concensus of scholars, concensus of scholars in open matters is the ruling of God in islam, currently slavery is disallowed in islam, if in future scholars gather back together and decide to revive it, it will be allowed again. And if u don’t know, the only way slaves are taken are thru wars in which after exchange of prisoners, ransoming etc, the leftover prisoners are eligable to be taken as slaves, it is not open biz where ppl are taken into slavery etc,all its means has been closed except one. But we can have that discussion when slavery is allowed again.

I told u previously about things being an open matter and upto ppl to decide, others are foundation of the Quran and clearly obligated or clearly prohibited and don’t change time and place, slavery is an open matter , pork is not, pork has been forbidden for children of israel before us as it is forbidden to us, it was from the beginning, fornicator are lashed 100 times if u have 4 pious male witnesses who witnessed the penetration first hand, and this is in presence of an islam state, yes it has been decided by God and so has usury, but in the west some scholars allow its usage in matters of housing which is a necessity and its the only option to buy a house.

Islam is not all rigid, based on necessity, things become allowed but it has to be pure necessity, there are matters which are eshtablished and things that are open. And sometimes things which are eshtablished as forbidden becomes allowed, for example if pork is the only meat and no other option as in a jungle etc , then pork becomes allowed just to suffice the hunger how much is needed to survive, not have a banquet out of it. And this analogy of pork is even mentioned in Quran.

yes, if it is an islamic state, acts of PUBLIC apostasy is punishable by death, what u do in ur private life whether u pray or not, believe in God or not is ur personal matter but if u want to go out in streets and declare ur an apostate, this is not allowed or start a movement declaring urself to be an apostate, and calling others to it, it has consequences, then ur taken to the Judge who carefully questions u and ur beliefs to determine if ur a sinner or really an apostate, if ur an apostate, u r given 3 days to come back to Islam i.e just say to the judge i retract my views, and that is it, ur free to leave, or u can be persistent till the end and face the death penalty.

Never, this is a christian slander on a prophet, just like they slander prophet David who according to islam was the best in prayers, best in fasts, best in worship etc.

Coz it is a command from God to do so and if there is a crowd, u can just wave ur hand to it, silly question really.

why do muslims kiss the black rock?

did lot have sex with his daughters?

so what does the malaki school say about apostasy? death, right?

I didn’t say you said god outlawed slavery before pork. I said the opposite, that god outlawed pork and didn’t, as of yet, and considering you claim Muhammad to be the last prophet, he never will, outlaw slavery. you missed the point totally. you keep saying god regulated slavery and it is up to us to decide. what I’m saying is that it should be obvious that outlawing slavery is more important than outlawing pork.

if your god isn’t all about laws, why outlaw pork? and you are saying that god left it as “an open matter for ppl to decide how they want to regulate themselves”. yet he commands the fornicator to be lashed 100 times and outlaws lending money at interest. lol.

Malaki school, but how wuld that benefit u.

ok, when did i say God outlawed slavery before pork, God never forbid slavery, but simply put restrictions to their exploitation and regulated it, but never made it persistent or mandatory to implement , but an open matter for ppl to decide how they want to regulate themselves,

IM sure u don’t think fornication or usury is immoral while i do, no one is bound to ur version of morality. If God existed he did exist before the first cell gained consciousness, and if not, then everyone will vanish from existence.

so you are a sunni? so what school? malaki, shafi’i. hanafi, hanbali? (some of those might be misspelled, but you should be able to figure out what I mean.)

lol. yes everyone knows the strategy of; “best to believe in a god and there not be one, then not to believe and there be one.” and yes, I know all abut the one unforgivable sin, shirk. I want your god to be logical. and you too.
so you say god doesn’t want to outlaw everything, but he chooses to outlaw pork before slavery. lmfao. I don’t care if abu bakr wore the same clothes and ate the same food as his slaves, slavery is immoral.
how am I a hypocrite? I’ve never enslaved anyone. I say slavery is immoral, you and your god say it is not.

what u think is moral was not before 100 years, what u thought was immoral was different just few decades back, morality changes with time and place. I don’t know how any individual of this era can claim moral authority when thousands of innocent ppl die everyday and we do nothing about them but tap our keyboards to each other, we are the worse of ppl to judge and set moral hypocritical standards, which is applicable for ourselfs but don’t care when it happens to others,

Regarding God,concept or theology or creed stays the same, what changes slightly is the content of the law. God has allowed some discretion to humans to decide on their own wat they want and do and this is open area, there are some rules ppl gets all upset, imagine if there was rule for everything, and like i said, don’t see all slavery from christian pov, it was diff in diff places.

Lastly when u say he abolished pork but not slavery, it seems u want God to obey ur desires, God doesn’t do what we want, we try our best to obey God and his commandments. U know this life is temporary and islamic belief is this life is but a place to build the afterlife, and we try to work our ways thru means that God has provided us and not disobey him, and not despair, if whatever he revealed is tru or not, or if he exists or not will be evident when we pass away, but if he does exist and we reach him in a state of disbelief, there is no going back or second chance, and if he doesn’t exist and we just vanish from existence once dead, then muslims having nothing to lose, but if he does exist, then the ones who disbelieve have much to lose.

im not shia , i follow the mainstream islam, u have to understand hadiths before discussing it, different schools of thought pick and choose by the criteria they set for deducting laws or as u say jurispundence, i’m not denying hadiths, im just making clear im not obliged to follow it if it doesn’t match the criteria of my school , and also how authentic is the hadith is a matter of discussion

I don’t recall where I read it. don’t remember if the narrator was abu hurraai (how do you spell the ‘cat guys’ name?) are you a shia? do you discount his hadiths if there is no other narrator? what madhab do you follow?
anyway, you don’t think gog and magog will devour everything before them? what is the lake in Palestine they are supposed to drink up with the front ranks of the army even before the rear will have a chance to drink?

yes, of course I’m subjecting my morality. don’t you think that slavery is immoral? obviously you are saying that morality isn’t timeless. so god changes his mind as to what is moral? wouldn’t a timeless god have a timeless morality?

“he doesn’t compel slavery nor does he abolish it.” but he abolishes the consumption of pork. don’t you find that strange?

sex slavery? ??

If u mean Abraham, then yes, it has same lineage but we don’t believe the followers of prev prophets to be jews and christians, these terms came out later jew from tribes of judea or a land called judea, and christian much later after Jesus’s death, the ones who followed the prophets in the correct way were technically muslims as in they submitted to the will of God, not them being follower of prophet Muhammad etc,

when u speak of Slavery, ur subjecting ur version of morality which is hardly couple of centuries to thousands and thousands of years of human existance, morality changes and human beings have no obligation to follow ur version of morality, what u think as moral, ill disagree with many of them, same way when slavery was permitted, it was proficient for its time, and we could also argue that some of us are so engulfed in our servitude to some companies or other work with no time for leisure and family that it can be technically defined as loose version of slavery,

God doesn’t need to change slavery or its status, it’s an open matter, he doesn’t compel slavery nor does he abolish it. It is dependent on the freewill of ppl, and going back to history, christian slavery is unlike islamic slavery, u can do a study on this matter if u like.

source for that hadith, and even if it is mentioned in hadiths, it’s subject to much interpretation and flexibilty, hadith and quran is not on same standing and also there is the matter of authenticity, applicability, which school of thought has accepted it, which has rejected it etc

aren’t there billions of them? one hadith says they will be 9 and a half times as many of them as there are muslims. that would but them at 13.5 billion. that is a lot of caves. do you really think these are that many undiscovered lands?

yes, there aren’t very many Jews in the world. their religion still comes from the same linage as Christianity and Islam. yes, concubines aren’t prostitutes, that is why there are two different words.
so your all powerful god couldn’t end slavery? why with all these prophets was it introduced to begin with. why not make it haram with Adam? Noah? Abraham? Moses?

No it’s not, muslims are to believe that islam is the only religion acceptable to God and whoever after knowing about it desires something other than islam will not be accepted from him,those muslims who don’t have this belief actually denies verses of Quran and commits act of desbelief,

the example of those who denies prophet Muhammd is the likes of Jews who denied Jesus when he came to them with clear proofs and miracles and they blasphemed on him and accused him of evil. When a prophet comes to a ppl, it is mandatory on them to accept him and his message. Just like it was for jews to accept Jesus as their messenger.

Concubinage doesn’t disprove that there is no creator, and concubinage is not putting women in prostitution, and also it is not mandatory in islam to revive slavery, infact islam got slavery in its track and regulated it, not introduce or abolish it.

There are just 2 abrahamic religions, judaism has at max 20 mil ppl even if we take the extended and loose affiliations. Christianity and Islam makes up almost 50% of population and thus two major religions, Christianity which by the way introduced new theology that was never known by men prior to it, nor by Children of Israel or the ones before them.

Violent reactions to what non muslims do in their own lands are condemned by majority of scholars, it’s the love and reveration of ppl for prophet Muhammad to act this way even tho sometimes its not right way, regarding Shahada, when christians convert to islam they are made to say Jesus son of Mary is Chosen and prophet of God, so does that mean they start worshipping Jesus too, when Moses came it was mandatory on his ppl to accept him as messenger nd take him as representative of God’s message on Earth, when Solomon came they are obliged to accept him as messenger, when Jesus came, it was mandatory for them to accept him, u can’t reject a messenger when it comes to the ppl, it is tantamount to disbelief in God.

It is not relevant, they might be any place , in caves, undiscovered lands, sly , hidden etc, its not a biggie among muslims.

what a big fat joke, Muslims never worship prophet Muhammad, we are forbidden to even invoke him, we revere him coz he is our prophet and representative of God’s message on Earth, u won’t have angels coming to ppl to guide them, it’s the ppl who are chosen as messengers. To obey the prophet is like obeying God coz God’s message was conveyed by him thru Gabriel, if had he changed God’s revelation, he would’ve been punished, if any prophets prior did it, they would’ve been as well.

When u say christians worship One God and creator implying there is no trinity, its maybe ur jewish or christian denomination who don’t believe in Trinity, or u didn’t go to church for long time.

Lot was a prophet, if christians don’t believe it, then it is a correction for them from the Quran, that Lot was a prophet to his ppl, like prophet Muhammad is to his ppl.

No that is not true, that is called Mujassima creed or theology that God is everywhere which is not accepted by muslims, the creed that is accepted is called Ashari creed that is discussed only among scholars and not by layman that the presence of God is in all of space as he is not bound by time and space, and his being is felt in all places, u literally don’t take a stone and say God is everywhere and in the stone and so i worship it or God is inside me, so others worship me etc, And also Quran says Allah is the light of heavens and Earth, light can also be described as energy, so God or creator is the energy by which all of creation continues to exist and run, So the energy or presence of God is in all his creation.

The other accepted creed is Athari creed which believes God is exclusive above 7 heavens and the interpretation of his presence being felt in all places is subject to debate. And also God has attributes literally like legs, hands, face etc which are unlike any of creation.
In any case Ashari creed relies heavily on interpretation and Athari heavily on literalism, In any case these are scholarly discussions.

Belief of the layman is simple, oneoness of God, hereafter, proper belief system etc and little bit of belief that God is above all his Creation him being above 7 heavens etc.

The concern of muslim scholars and their refutations of raw greek, persian, atheism and other foreign philosophies has helped the islamic orthodoxy prevail to this day, a factor which easily crumbled Traditional or orthodox Christianity.

Any case if u study the islamic creed or Aqeedah, ull see its a vast field and very much dealing with logical aspects and questions and doubts regarding Creator.It’s a big subject.

isn’t al-khidr immortal? where is jesus right now according to islam?

yes it is the religion of moses. and moses was a genocidal maniac, ordered to kill all the women and children of the midianites, save the virgin girls, by god.

true.

Agree sister- that shiws the Christians base their believe in Christianity on blind allegiance, not based on any rationale or reason. Its so sad as little knowledge of the faith is dangerous knowledge.

Christians maybe dont stone people but they invade other peoples countries and killed civilians with bombs and bullets

Brother- the Bible is made of OT and NT- you are half a True Christian if you ignore teachings of the OT

1. The God has come to people Himself, not to forgive them – but to rescue them.
2. Apparently, you know all that such life and that such death. You answer also – if people will be after death somewhere, means what they will be? How they will be, if they have died?
(sorry for machine translation)

NO. The bible today is NOT the same that existed at the time of Jesus. Your bible scholars agree that the writers of the bible never met Jesus. why do YOU disagree with a well-known fact?

The qur’an tells muslims to believe in the prohethood of Jesus and that the bible was sent to him as a true word of God but tells us that the book TODAY paraded as the bible is not the same one the qur’an tells us to believe in because it has been changed. (see Q5:14 & 15 for example). The clear contradictions regarding the status of Jesus in the bible and the qur’an is enough to confirm that. That is why God sent the Qur’an, a book He Himself has vowed can never be altered by man.

I still want you to address my argument that the writers of the bible never met Jesus and that the earliest of them wrote 40 years after Jesus and never met him!

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 654:

Narrated ‘Umar:

I heard the Prophet saying, “Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Apostle.”

You got it all wrong. Obey Allah and his messager. Read it’s carefully. The verse didn’t say obey Allah with Mohammad.
The verse said Obey Allah and his messager. Meaning whoever obeys what the prophet came with from his lord has indeed obeys Allah.

Meaning his knowledge is very where. But God is above his creation. Above the seven heavens.

But jesus Chris said

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus believed in the Torah. Came to uphold The Law of Moses not to change it.. He said so in the Bible.

Paul was only a self anointed apostle. A contradiction in terms. Paul abrogated the teachings of Jesus. Read it in his letters which is the major part of the NT.

In fact modern Christians are Pauline Flock. Not of Jesus, whom he had rejected.

Muslims do NOT worship anything anyone other the One God, Almighty Creator of the Universe.

To worship or pray to Prophet MuhammadPBUH would be idolatry. The one and only unforgivable sin in Islam. Muhammad was only a messenger like others before him. No different. All this is in the Qur’an.

Christian worship The Father, The son, The Holy Ghost = Trinity. The Christian God impregnated his mother and was born of a human woman, The Mother of God. All this is in the Holy Bible.

Do not Muslims believe that God is everywhere. Closer than the jugular vein, in a manner of speaking.

The Christian God seems to be modeled on Man not the other way around. In fact designed on the Egyptian, Babylonian and Hindu Mythology. They are all Trinitarians.

not all. but most are Trinitarians. you look like a learned muslim? can you tell me where gog and magog are?

so when Jonah disobeyed allah and did fulfill his mission, that wasn’t a sin? why did allah make a storm and make the lots case three times to have him thrown overboard? and of course the whale.

paul didn’t write a testament. Mathew, mark, luke and john. paul wrote a bunch of letters. it is kind of like the hadiths. weren’t they written 200 years after Muhammad died?

Christians know this. they just think that jesus abrogated that law. so let me ask you. if Solomon is a prophet in islalm, was he not breaking Islamic law that limits the number of wives to 4?

isn’t this proof that both religions are bad? or rather all three abrahamics.

good thing the Christians barely study the bible. if they did, they would be a lot more like muslims.

Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah’s Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. “What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?” They replied, “Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya.” ‘Abdullah bin Salam said, “O Allah’s Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah.” The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, “Lift up your hand.” Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah’s Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn ‘Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.

misguided and ignorant views hell no you Christians barely even study your bible

still he found the one god christians women always used to wear scarfs up until the 1900’s

Yes you are correct, however Muslims seem to get much more angry and are ready to kill when their prophet is criticized than when someone criticises Allah. Another thing, if Islam was created to worship this one true G-D, then why, in the most important declaration of one’s Islamic faith, the Shahada, is Muhammad’s name mentioned? His name can appear elsewhere, but why particularly in this ever important sentence. Hmmm, Looks like Muhammad is put on a equal footing with Allah.

That’s because there is still evidence of sex slavery in the Islamic world in the 21st century. Whereas there is no slavery in the western/secular world